Podcast – Review of Under the Banner of Heaven

I heard about this book almost from the minute it was published back in the day. I live in Boulder Co and the author is a local hero and a highly respected intellectual.


Many friends and family members encouraged me to read Under the Banner of Heaven, but I dismissed as a hateful screed against the church I love and slandered it on my blog as “horrid“. 

I like to think of myself as open minded and so I am not in the habit of judging before reading, but in this case I did.

I watched the first two episodes of the Hulu show this past week and decided it was high time to finally read the book. So I bought the Kindle version and have read intently the past few days and finished up this morning.

I was pleased to read what I consider a fair and well written depiction of our history and although perhaps quibbling over certain notions, I believe this book to be a good addition to the many that have been written about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

My testimony is not damaged in any way by reading this book. 

I liked how the author described his own faith:

“And if I remain in the dark about our purpose here, and the meaning of eternity, I have nevertheless arrived at an understanding of a few more modest truths: Most of us fear death. Most of us yearn to comprehend how we got here, and why—which is to say, most of us ache to know the love of our creator. And we will no doubt feel that ache, most of us, for as long as we happen to be alive.”

I found the chapters on mental illness to be particularly compelling and how the various doctors described in detail the differences between faith and psychosis.

At the end of the day I believe everyone wants to fit into our society. And non-conformity breeds emotional illness, especially in the posterity of those who step out of the mainstream of current accepted truth.

Human history is littered with the human wreckage of those who bravely stand up and share something new and unorthodox, especially if it cuts into the finances of current business endeavors.

Jenny Marie Hatch

Sherri Dew: What do LDS Women Get?

Hatch Children at Pearl Street Mall in 1997

Hatch Children at Pearl Street Mall in 1997

I do not have anything to add, simply perfect! Love you Sherri!

Jenny Hatch

jeff-and-jenny-1996

The talk by Linda Burton is located HERE!

My Thoughts on the Ordination of Women in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

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This photo was found at the ordain women flickr site and is used without permission under Fair Use Copyright Law.

This photo was found at the ordain women flickr site and is used without permission under Fair Use Copyright Law.

To see all of the photos in this stream click HERE.

UPDATE: October 8th, 2013

Here is a little chat I had with a gal in the comment section of Joanna Brooks Blog.  It further clarifies my position.

Jenny Marie Hatch

“I am wondering who is paying Joanna and Kate to organize and agitate naive young LDS Women… 

Sara Anne to Jenny Marie Hatch

I don’t even consider myself a part of the Ordain Women movement, and I still find your thoughts in this post offensive. I also can’t believe that you could possibly fault someone for her “well timed book rollout” and public appearances when the entire right hand side of your blog is filled from top to bottom with self-promoting advertisements for your own financial endeavors and public appearances.

Jenny Marie Hatch  to Sara Anne

Sara Anne,

Media appearances on the level that Joanna has enjoyed are never an accident. They ALWAYS further someones agenda. The elites reserve a unique level of hate for the happy and contented Home Maker, because she stands at the crossroads of all of their agendas and plans for the collapse of the American Family.

I have no problem with anyone promoting, selling, or writing books on any topic. The common themes for all of my work is “Mother, get your butt back in the Kitchen”, so Joanna and her feminist friends are my ideological foes.

I have a deep understanding of psychological media campaigns designed to breed discontent in certain populations. And I am just cynical enough to believe that the contented mormon homemaker would be high on Madison Avenues list to target.

LDS Men are the kindest, most well behaved, gentle souls on Planet Earth. And the sisters of the church would do well to get on their knees every night to thank God for the blessing of having them in their lives.”

Go read all of the comments on the blog, it will provide quite a cross section of thoughts on this topic.

Jenny Hatch

UPDATE: October 7th

I believe this group of activist women are an organized cabal of professionally trained leftist agitators who have been tasked with doing a well publicized stunt in order to be excommunicated so they can then then whine to the media for the next twenty years about how evil and patriarchal the church is, having put their Feminist beliefs on the line and paid the seemingly ultimate sacrifice. I just wonder how much money they have been paid to do it…

I have quietly observed Joanna Brooks well timed book rollout, her many blog posts, media appearances, book tours, and I even attended her lecture on the campus of SUU last fall. She is a statist progressive who has no clear understanding of the basic doctrines of the church.

She is someone who believes her agenda of ordaining women to the Priesthood will “shape” the future of the Faith I love.

And I am here to tell you, “No, it will not”.

In her post today she made it clear they are just getting started as a group.

Here are my thoughts:

Thoughts on the Ordination of Women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

By

Jenny Marie Hatch

I hanker for Zion.

One heart, one mind, no poor among us…

As I have studied the scriptures these forty odd years since learning to read, one theme, one image has been a constant wellspring of delight, and that is ZION!

The big question in my mind all of these years has been, What will it look like?  How will we live?  How do we move from the Babylonian nightmare to the prosperity and peace of Zion?  Where, if scripture is true, all infants will live and all men will reach the ripe old age of a tree.

As I have studied these prophecies and lined them up with current reality I must admit to feeling somewhat baffled how we are going to manage the faith leap from so much societal despair to the health and wholeness of a healthy Zion existance.

I love to read history and political commentary.  In fact I spend several hours each day reviewing the political scene as America has been, to borrow a phrase from Robert Bork, “slouching towards Gomorrah”.

I must confess to a certain orthodox view of Latter Day Saint life, especially in the covenants I have chosen to make and keep with my Heavenly Father, but as a registered Libertarian, my “Live and Let Live” appraoch to economics and personal choice as to how each individual decides to spend their mortality may appear at odds to some observers.

To my way of thinking if Free Will was important enough for us to have a war in heaven to the degree that 1/3 of our Fathers children lost their first estate, then as an eternal principle to be held up, revered, and reverenced, freedom of choice is one of the main principles of earth life.

So why do I find myself so wracked by the idea of women being ordained?

I have read many of the most visible and trafficked arguments, commentary, and interviews located on the web.

As I was pondering the spectacle of a march on the ticket office of the conference center less than 24 hours after typing this post, which will undoubtedly be exploited in a million different ways by the Media, I found myself tearing up, frustrated, and exasperated that this is where we are as a people.

And that angst is tied up in how distant I perceive Zion to be from where we are now.

In an ideal society the Priesthood would simply perform the sacred ordinances  of sacrament, baptism, endowment, and marriage.

Since we know the church infrastructure is NOT an eternal system, these ordinances will eventually be performed by men and youth holding the priesthood in mostly intimate family settings and our temples throughout eternity.

In reading the arguments from our sisters who hanker for the supposed power, authority, and esteem granted to the males of the LDS faith, it is obvious to me that many of them have adopted a statist view of family life and believe it is appropriate for government and church to step in to take over roles that were always intended to be played by individual men and women, husbands and wives sealed together and prepared and ready to provide for children and grandchildren.

As the family has declined in functionality (and the many, many whys of that decline are not the purpose of this essay), and various state and church infrastructures have stepped in to attempt to fill in the gaps, we now find ourselves in a place where Bishops and other priesthood holders are involved in situations that simply would not exist if we were all vested in and living a Zion Life.

As young feminists observe the baffling spectacle of priesthood holders attempting to play the roles of provider, social worker, therapist, and doctor to the families in their care while Mother and Father default on their own God Given roles, they perceive it might be fun/enticing to get in on some of that action.

Men tend to be better about chilling and not over reacting while families are in crisis.

The last person I want giving me advice on personal matters during a family crisis would be some busybody feminist who bows down and embraces humanism with her left hand while sustaining the Prophet with her right.

Some of these sisters completely misunderstand their own eternal potential as woman by believing that it has been more important to spend time and money focused on careerism than in bearing and raising children.

Again, this is the sort of individual I personally would NOT want as my Bishop while struggling with a family or spiritual issue.

To me, ordaining women with Priesthood Authority would be a leap backwards away from simple Zion living and an acceptance and even promotion that those who have chosen to invest their all into Motherhood really are in need of Sister Bishop Social Worker to step in and raise and provide for the children, because the uneducated and uncredentialed females in our midst are just too ignorant to do the job right.

In an ideal Zion society all families are healthy, whole, and the Priesthood is simply the power and authority of Heavenly Father to conduct saving ordinances and blessings.

I do not need to be ordained because I can tap into my husbands priesthood power any time the need arises to bless my family and posterity.  The Holy Spirit taught me how to utilize this blessing over many years of seeking for the spiritual gifts.  If a young female wants to learn more about it, I would encourage her to humbly petition her Father in Heaven who will quietly teach her.

I look at the gals who will be agitating for Priesthood Power the same way I look at those who tried to buy it for money from the Apostles.

When and if these sisters raise a righteous, whole, and healthy family of their own…then and only then will I pause in my own beliefs to consider some of the arguments presented.

Until then?

Mind your own beeswax and stop insulting and distracting from the most sacred weekend our family enjoys together every six months as we bask in the sweet spirit of General Conference.

Jenny Blogs at The Natural Family BLOG

Jenny Hatch

Jenny

VIDEO: A ten minute overview of the People of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

I am pleased and proud of everything my church is involved in that is depicted in this video except for the partnering with the Vaccine Money Mongers and their sickness and dealth cult. It sickens me to think of my tithes and offerings going to pay for such deception and evil.

Other than that I loved this presentation.

JennyHatch

Jenny

Meridian Magazine: I don’t have a Testimony of The History of The Church

Davis Bitton: To read this whole article click HERE


Davis Bitton, who died in 2007, was a regular columnist on Meridian. He was president of the Mormon History Association, professor of history at the University of Utah, and official Assistant Church Historian in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This article, somewhat shortened from what we published years ago, is a classic, a statement from a scholar who had looked deeply into Church history and, like so many others, cannot find anything that forces the conclusion “our enemies like to promote.”

I don’t have a testimony of the history of the church. That is why I can be a historian and also a believing Latter-day Saint. I will expand on this idea, but first let me address some related questions.

Do all well-informed historians become anti-Mormons?

The critics would have you believe that they are disinterested pursuers of the truth. There they were, minding their own business, going about their conscientious study of church history and—shock and dismay!—they came across this (whatever this is) that blew them away. As hurtful as it is for them, they can no longer believe in the church and, out of love for you, they now want to help you see the light of day.

Let’s get one thing clear. There is nothing in church history that leads inevitably to the conclusion that the church is false. There is nothing that requires the conclusion that Joseph Smith was a fraud. How can I say this with such confidence? For the simple reason that the Latter-day Saint historians who know the most about our church history have been and are faithful, committed members of the church. More precisely, there are faithful Latter-day Saint historians who know as much about this subject as any anti-Mormon or anyone who writes on the subject from an outside perspective. In fact, with few exceptions, they know much, much more. They have not been blown away. They have not gnashed their teeth and abandoned their faith. To repeat, they have found nothing that forces the extreme conclusion our enemies like to promote.

We need to reject the simpleminded, inaccurate picture that divides people into two classes. On the one hand, according to our enemies, are the sincere seekers of truth, full of goodness and charity. On the other hand, in the critics’ view, stand the ignorant Mormons. Even faithful Mormon scholars must be ignorant. Otherwise they are dishonest, playing their part in the conspiracy to deceive their people. This is the anti-Mormon view of the situation.

Can we see how ridiculous this picture is? It is a travesty on both sides. Many Latter-day Saints may not know their history in depth, but some of them know a good deal. As for Latter-day Saint scholars, as a group they compare favorably with any similar group of historians. It will not do to charge them with being dishonest. I happen to know most of them and have no hesitation in rejecting a smear of their character.

On the other hand, your typical anti-Mormon is no disinterested pursuer of the truth. If you are confronted with a “problem,” some kind of “non-faith-promoting” take on church history, the chances are that your willing helper can lay no claim to having done any significant research in Mormon history. Oblivious to the primary sources, unread in the journal literature, the critic has picked up the nugget from previous anti-Mormon writers and offers it as though it were a fresh discovery. Most of the time it is anything but new—it is a stock item in a litany of anti-Mormon claims that serves their purpose. It is a broken record.

Why does the charge accomplish anything? Because they don’t tell you how stale it is and of course will not let you know where to find the answers that have already been provided. To you the charge is new, or may be new. Falling into the trap, you think you have been deceived by the church—after all, here is something that appears to be seriously damaging to the restored gospel. Like peddlers of snake oil from time immemorial, the critic is willing to take full advantage of the situation.

How many historians who are deeply familiar with the sources on Mormon origins still find it possible to remain in the fold? We might start with names like Richard L. Bushman, James B. Allen, Glen M. Leonard, Richard Lloyd Anderson, Larry C. Porter, Milton V. Backman, Dean C. Jessee, and Ronald W. Walker, all of whom are thoroughly familiar with the issues and sources. Joining their ranks are younger historians like Steven Harper and Mark Ashurst-McGee. I offer just a sampling of faithful, knowledgeable historians.

I do not claim that all who study Mormon history are believing Latter-day Saints. That would be patently absurd. From the beginning, disbelieving historians have written accounts of the events. There have also been historians like Hubert Howe Bancroft who simply put the truth question on the shelf. No one denies that such approaches are possible. But there is also a long tradition of important work by Latter-day Saint scholars. In other words, those who know the most about Mormon history do not simply and inevitably join the ranks of disbelievers and Mormon-haters. It is quite possible, apparently, to know a great deal about Mormon history and still be a practicing, believing Latter-day Saint.

Why do I spend time insisting on this simple, obvious fact? Because our opponents want to leave the opposite impression. And because for many Latter-day Saints it is sufficient to know that faithful historians who are thoroughly familiar with the issues do not accept the interpretations and conclusions of the would-be destroyers of faith. I have not entered the argument over any of the specific issues. My point is simpler than that: Competent historians who have devoted many years of study to the issues have not felt compelled to abandon their faith in the restored gospel.

Are our expectations realistic?

May I reminisce just a little? The year was 1979. Leonard Arrington and I had just published a one-volume history of the church entitled The Mormon Experience: A History of the Latter-day Saints…

During that euphoric time, Leonard and I attended autograph parties, were interviewed, and gave quite a few talks. In an interview for Sunstone, we were asked to describe the relationship between faith and history. Here is Leonard Arrington’s response:

I have never felt any conflict between maintaining my faith and writing historical truth. If one sticks to historical truth that shouldn’t damage his faith in any way. The Lord doesn’t require us to believe anything that’s untrue. My long interest in Mormon history (I’ve been working in it for 33 years) has only served to build my testimony of the gospel and I find the same thing happening to other Latter-day Saint historians as well.

My own answer went like this:

What’s potentially damaging or challenging to faith depends entirely, I think, on one’s expectations, and not necessarily history. Any kind of experience can be shattering to faith if the expectation is such that one is not prepared for the experience. . . . A person can be converted to the Church in a distant part of the globe and have great pictures of Salt Lake City, the temple looming large in the center of the city….

…Only in the Doctrine and Covenants course is some historical background sometimes included, and even there the emphasis is on the spiritual and doctrinal content. Finally, at present (and for the past few years), priesthood and Relief Society classes devote a year of study to one of the presidents of the church. Some historical background is provided, but once again the emphasis is on the doctrinal teachings. The message that comes across to me loud and clear from lesson manuals and missionary lessons is simple. Our testimony is not in the history of the church.

So our eager anti-Mormon comes to us with his version of Mormon history. He has probably picked up his example from other anti-Mormons. He is pretty sure his Latter-day Saint neighbor will not know about it. His eyes are bright with anticipation. “Gotcha! What do you say to that! In view of that, how can you possibly be a Mormon.” If he doesn’t say these things, he implies them.

Here is where the faithful Latter-day Saint should take the wind out of the sails of the critic. Instead of collapsing with a wail of distress, the church member smiles and shrugs his or her shoulders and says things like this: “Hmm. I wonder if that’s true.” “That isn’t part of my religion. I have never heard it taught in any of the classes and have not read it in any of our manuals.” “You know what? That probably interests you a lot more than it does me.” “I haven’t heard what might be said on the other side. But what I do know is that I don’t have a testimony of the history of the church.”

Some of us might deplore the fading of church history from the curriculum. In the meantime, of course, you can still read on your own, individually or in study groups. To my knowledge, no one is forbidding such study.

Admittedly, knowledge of church history is not essential to our eternal salvation. But I do think it is natural and very satisfying to learn as much as we can about it. We study history, any history, as part of our human quest for self-understanding. As I read about the Latter-day Saints and their activities in the past as well as the present, I can be inspired, amused, bewildered, surprised, proud—and sometimes a little ashamed. More often than not, I am amazed at the perseverance, the tenacity, the determination to stay the course through good times and bad. Without even trying, I instinctively identify with the Saints. Imperfect as they were and are, the Latter-day Saints are my people. But my testimony is not in them, and I hope theirs is not in me.

Brigham Young once made a statement about Joseph Smith that our enemies smack their lips over. How they love to misuse it! Here is what Brother Brigham said:

I recollect a conversation I had with a priest who was an old friend of ours, before I was personally acquainted with the Prophet Joseph. I clipped every argument he advanced, until at last he came out and began to rail against “Joe Smith,” saying, “that he was a mean man, a liar, moneydigger, gambler, and a whore-master”; and he charged him with everything bad, that he could find language to utter. I said, hold on, brother Gillmore, here is the doctrine, here is the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the revelations that have come through Joseph Smith the Prophet. I have never seen him, and do not know his private character. The doctrine he teaches is all I know about the matter, bring anything against that if you can. As to anything else I do not care. If he acts like a devil, he has brought forth a doctrine that will save us, if we will abide it. He may get drunk every day of his life, sleep with his neighbor’s wife every night, run horses and gamble, I do not care anything about that, for I never embrace any man in my faith. But the doctrine he has produced will save you and me, and the whole world; and if you can find fault with that, find it.11

What do you think Brother Brigham meant? Was he giving carte blanche to church members, saying that it didn’t matter how they behaved? Was he here giving his true feelings about Joseph Smith and actually describing him? If President Young’s meaning isn’t obvious, let me paraphrase it: The truth of the gospel and the divinity of Joseph Smith’s calling as prophet of the restoration do not depend on his behavior as a human being and do not require perfection in his life.

Did Brigham really think that Joseph was a moral reprobate? That is the way some brilliant anti-Mormons use this quotation. Ridiculous. Listen to this: “Who can justly say aught against Joseph Smith? I was as well acquainted with him, as any man. I do not believe that his father and mother knew him any better than I did. I do not think that a man lives on the earth that knew him any better than I did; and I am bold to say that, Jesus Christ excepted, no better man ever lived or does live upon this earth. I am his witness.”12 But—and this is an important truth—President Young did not want his testimony to center on Joseph Smith as a person.

Let’s consider a statement by President George Q. Cannon: “Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an Apostle, or a President; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone; but if we lean on God, He never will fail us. When men and women depend on God alone and trust in Him alone, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside. . . . Perhaps it is His own design that faults and weaknesses should appear in high places in order that His Saints may learn to trust in Him and not in any man or men.”13

I do not have a testimony of church history. In this declaration, I join Nephi, who said: “O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh” (2 Nephi 4:34).

Notes

Paper presented at the annual meeting of the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIR), Sandy, Utah, 5 August 2004 (see http://www.fair-lds.org). Used by permission. Also published in Meridian Magazine Online (see http://www.ldsmag.com). Used by permission. Copyright 2004 Davis Bitton.

“An Interview with Leonard Arrington and Davis Bitton,” Sunstone, July-August 1979, 41.
“Think Not When You Gather to Zion,” Hymns (1948), no. 21.
See Isaiah Berlin, The Crooked Timber of Humanity: Chapters in the History of Ideas (London: Murray, 1990).
Leopold von Ranke, The History of the Popes, Their Church and State and Especially of Their Conflicts with Protestantism in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries, trans.

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More on this topic from Jenny HERE